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Author Topic: HELP please... broken second hand pinion on 88D  (Read 8311 times)

Offline szabgab

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HELP please... broken second hand pinion on 88D
« on: September 24, 2012, 10:01:28 PM »
Dear all,

I just had my watch movement back from cleaning and service. I was fitting the hands back and a terrible mishap (lodged dirt in the hand setting tool), my sausage fingers and too much down force caused the second wheel's pinion to snap off. So I guess I will have to take the movement apart but without a donor movement I could not replace the pinion (no parts)

Anyway, my question is, does anybody has got a second wheel assembly to sell? I would hate to change the movement to something inferior, as the 88D is one of the best movements...

Thank you everybody in advance.

Gabriel

Offline Dutchsiberia

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Re: HELP please... broken second hand pinion on 88D
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2012, 04:01:20 PM »
I got the parts for my Zodiac SST Astrographic from this person.


http://oldswisswatches.com/Spares/Zodiac_Mechanical_Movements.htm

He's from India and has proven to me to be reliable :)

Offline szabgab

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Re: HELP please... broken second hand pinion on 88D
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2012, 01:26:29 PM »
Hi Dutchsiberia, thanks for the info. The guy replied to me in less than an hour and seemed to be rather competent. One thing though, is the part (second hand pinion) the same length as on the other Zodiac movements? Sounds odd to me. Do you or anybody else know if this is the case? The reason, why I;m asking this, because on the link you provided the part (with the part number 227) is the same on several movements.

Thank you,

Gabriel

Offline Dutchsiberia

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Re: HELP please... broken second hand pinion on 88D
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2012, 06:30:26 AM »
No idea? Actually, a lot of parts are interchangeable with this movements, but an astrographic mystery dial watch will have longer hour, minute and second pinions (axles?) for the clear discs mounting.

Offline Butch

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Re: HELP please... broken second hand pinion on 88D
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2012, 07:30:16 AM »
One of the service manuals shows you the part number for something and then you can check other calibers to see which ones uses the same part number. Helps if you are trying to buy a donor watch for the parts.
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Offline szabgab

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Re: HELP please... broken second hand pinion on 88D
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2012, 04:31:40 PM »
Dutchsiberia -> that's what I thought... Because of the discs the posts or pinions or whatever their name should be higher. Also the second hand pinion sticks out quite a bit (not if you are an idiot and break it off though :) )

Butch -> Sorry, I did not fully understand... You mean the service manuals or part lists on the guy's website or somewhere else? The Indian bloke is selling the part for 20 USD plus postage so I guess I could buy a whole movement for around that price-mark and swap things around later.

Offline Ultra-Vintage

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Re: HELP please... broken second hand pinion on 88D
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2012, 05:03:00 PM »
Dutchsiberia -> that's what I thought... Because of the discs the posts or pinions or whatever their name should be higher. Also the second hand pinion sticks out quite a bit (not if you are an idiot and break it off though :) )

Butch -> Sorry, I did not fully understand... You mean the service manuals or part lists on the guy's website or somewhere else? The Indian bloke is selling the part for 20 USD plus postage so I guess I could buy a whole movement for around that price-mark and swap things around later.

You probably will not find a complete running movement for that price, those days are over for the most part.

Offline Butch

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Re: HELP please... broken second hand pinion on 88D
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2012, 08:22:47 PM »
Sorry, I thought you knew about the ZodiacCatalogs.com site where all the manuals are.

Hmmm, SW, maybe it is not as apparent to the new users as we thought.
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Offline Dutchsiberia

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Re: HELP please... broken second hand pinion on 88D
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2012, 12:32:25 PM »
you could ask him to measure the seconds hand pinion and compare it with you broken one?

Offline szabgab

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Re: HELP please... broken second hand pinion on 88D
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2012, 04:58:02 PM »
Butch -> Sorry, I was not aware of the catalogs. My mistake though, have not read the general faq properly
Ultra-Vintage -> I know, I might not find a movement for that price but a complete (but not running) movement could yield some other parts too in the future
Dutchsiberia ->I could, but the second hand wheel is buried deep in the movement below everything, that makes this beauty to breath. So I prefer to take it apart only if I more or less know I have the time (and stamina) to put together. All I would need to fix the pinion and loose something by mishandling...

Offline szabgab

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Re: HELP please... broken second hand pinion on 88D
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2012, 04:31:49 AM »

You probably will not find a complete running movement for that price, those days are over for the most part.

I suppose you must be wright. A dreadfully beaten up, not working gold tone astro with the wrong date-ringed movement gone for 91 USD last night. Before that a working but fully incorrect, clear crystal astrographic went for something like 125 USD. Shame ;)

Offline szabgab

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Re: HELP please... broken second hand pinion on 88D
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2012, 09:29:06 PM »
So following Dutchsiberia's advise and a month and a half of fruitless hunting for a cheap donor I ordered the part from the Indian vendor mentioned earlier. Especially that the hunt for something cheap ended up costing me £160 for an another Astro I still have not received (also from India) :)) Anyway, I will have to be careful with the replacement, I cocked up two movements recently (fortunately cheap Raketa ones) but I learned a lot about jewels, hairsprings, bendy little pieces of metal and the likes :D

Oh well I suppose better to learn on a cheap and simple movement than to damage something a lot more expensive and valuable altogether.

Offline Dutchsiberia

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Re: HELP please... broken second hand pinion on 88D
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2012, 04:06:19 AM »
 Good luck! Be very careful and take your time. I'm tinkering with wayches since the early 90's and still consider myself an amateur. Make absolutely sure the seconds hand pinion is long enough before you completely reassemble the movement.

Offline szabgab

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Re: HELP please... broken second hand pinion on 88D
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2012, 10:10:48 AM »
Oh I will take my time. I learned my lesson - not to rush not to cut corners also not to do the same thing multiple times as one will end up being less careful (this is how I ended up twisting the hairspring on one of the Raketas thus rendering it useless as a movement (but useful as some steampunk-ish part for the gf).

If I can help it I won't go anywhere near the very delicate parts (hairspring).

I had a slight test run yesterday removing the rotor with it's bridge to see why is hand-winding sticky. It wounds easily  without the rotor attached. Is this normal behaviour or is something out of tune needing oiling or cleaning? The rotor winds the watch OK and you can just about wind it via the stem but it's sticky and I'm afraid I'd break something (most likely stem) Shame I did not return it to the watchmaker now it's too late for "guarantee repair".

Offline szabgab

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Re: HELP please... broken second hand pinion on 88D
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2012, 11:06:00 AM »
Also I meant to ask, the info on ranfft.de states about the Zodiac 88d "The family is based on the manual wind calibre AS 1687/1688" Also "The automatic mechanism is a joint development of Doxa, Eberhard, Favre-Leuba, Girard-Perregaux, and Zodiac."

Now I have seen some pictures of Favre Leuba automatics and some of them look strikingly similra to the 88. Does anybody know if they are the same, similar, parts interchangeable or just look similar because of the rotor (and it's gears and bridge)?

Offline szabgab

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Re: HELP please... broken second hand pinion on 88D
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2012, 11:09:41 AM »
Just an addition to the previous post http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&169&2uswk&Favre-Leuba_1152

The 1152 looks strikingly similar, even the calendar works seem to be the same

Offline Butch

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Re: HELP please... broken second hand pinion on 88D
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2012, 12:24:44 PM »
Several companies used the AS made movements, like Zodiac, including FL and GP.

 :-[

After posting the above from memory I looked at that page again and it says what I said, with more detail:

"The family is based on the manual wind calibre AS 1687/1688.
The automatic mechanism is a joint development of Doxa, Eberhard, Favre-Leuba, Girard-Perregaux, and Zodiac.?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2012, 12:26:50 PM by Butch »
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Offline szabgab

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Re: HELP please... broken second hand pinion on 88D
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2012, 12:37:56 PM »
Hi Butch, thanks for your reply. Does this means the movement is the same (apart from in-house modifications, like different inscription on rotors, hacking features or quick set dates)?

Also while I have your attention, what is the difference in a 21600 and 36000 movement (I don't mean the beat frequency). Is it the second wheel, escapement wheel, all of these or none of these?

Thank you,

Gabriel

Offline Butch

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Re: HELP please... broken second hand pinion on 88D
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2012, 12:47:20 PM »
Correct. They all bought them and did in house modifications, or had AS make the mods for them and then deliver the movements to the factory.

As for your second question, there are many parts shared by the two Zodiac movements, caliber's 72 and 88 (or 76 and 86!, or any mix thereof). On the subscription site there are service manuals that can help identify some of the parts that were used in various movements.
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Offline szabgab

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Re: HELP please... broken second hand pinion on 88D
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2012, 03:58:32 AM »
Butch -> Thank you for the information and the gentle steer :)

The trouble is, Sudarson, the Indian guy, who is running the oldswisswatches place is saying, the part 227 (second wheel assembly) came in three flavours, e.g. three different lengths under the same part number. Sounds incredible. My problem is, I can not measure the shaft of the second wheel, as it is broken. Does anybody have got an 88d movement apart who could by any chance tell me the length of the part?

Thank you.

Offline Butch

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Re: HELP please... broken second hand pinion on 88D
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2012, 08:45:27 AM »
I guess that is possible, I have heard of stranger things. Good luck!
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Offline szabgab

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Re: HELP please... broken second hand pinion on 88D
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2012, 08:01:01 AM »
I'm not a lucky man. These Indian guys, why did I bother? One sends me a dud watch and never replies to emails the other sends me a salvaged part from an old watch for 23 USD. It is not the correct length and the shaft is bent. Damn these people.  The problem of internet selling, it's completely based on trust. It seems certain people CAN NOT be trusted.

Offline Dutchsiberia

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Re: HELP please... broken second hand pinion on 88D
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2012, 03:47:12 AM »
Man, that really  :shuc
I've only had positive experiences with the dude from oldswisswatches so far....

Offline szabgab

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Re: HELP please... broken second hand pinion on 88D
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2012, 12:05:10 PM »
No problem, things happen... At least the oldswiss guy had the guts to reply, apologize and post a partial refund. Not so lucky with the ebay t*sser, currently paypal is sorting out something for me...

 

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