What do you think?

[Butch]

280813460802 - $211.49 for a band.

Now my questions to you is, "Do you think this is a Zodiac band?".

[Ultra-Vintage]

Wow, $212 for a band.  I could have put that towards another watch, but thats just me.


To me, it looks like a clasp switch onto a non-zodiac band with the type of endpieces that it has.  However....I am no expert on bands

[orangecorallimorph]

Did Zodiac even build bands? I thought most were provided by outside sources with the Zodiac logo. LOL!

[jon p]

      this looks like 1970s zodiac, but like UV i could be wrong. made in hongkong, after jb champion, i think zodiac bands were made there, different providers. butch, whats the scoop!?

[zaniac]

I'm not sure what you mean by "Zodiac" band. I believe it was originally on a Zodiac, probably a Super Sea Wolf. It's a Kreisler band. I had a similar one on a round Astrographic. Same design on the top, bottom, clasp and between the lugs, but was a mm or two smaller. I know Kreisler bands were on some 50's or 60's Zodiacs like you mentioned, but I've also seen them on several Astrographics. I thought I recalled seeing a Zodiac watch in a catalog with the same band.
I wasn't the winner, but I was watching it closely. Maybe it's a good thing I wasn't the winner. I've been wrong before and I could be wrong again

[Butch]

I have let this simmer for a few days as there are lurkers out here with knowledge too.

I am unsure to be honest with you. I do know that the Zodiacs sold by Trauner, the North American Distributor for Zodiac, used Kreisler in the 50's and as they moved into the 60's started working with JB Champion. I know that Trauner had a lady whose job it was to put Champion bands on the new Zodiacs when they arrived from Switzerland in NYC. I also know that during this same period there were Swiss made (and stamped) bands for the watches sold by Zodiac over there too.

I am thinking that if this is not a band someone has simply put a Zodiac clasp onto, then what it may be is from the 80's. In 1980 DIXI bought Zodiac and after a miserable 2 years in '82 they merged Zenith and Zodiac, producing both brands in the same factory. This actually could be a DIXI alternative for a cheaper band source. By this time Kreisler was having their bands made in Hong Kong and not the US so would have been a cheaper alternative than Champion's.

I have not seen a Zodiac on a band like this before. It would be interesting to see one that was known to be original though, to see the attention paid to the end pieces where it meets the lugs. I do not think that I have any relevant (to this conversation) catalogs that can help with this.

It would be interesting to see some of the European sales catalogs from the 50's, 60's and 70's. I would also love to find a very early 80's catalog by DIXI. I do have one that is from the later 80's, but by that time they had switched over to emulating Rado. And then into the 90's where they were cloning TAGs. But now I start to digress...

[zaniac]

Thanks for the great info, Butch!
I'm going to guess the band was made in the 70's and originally on a Zodiac.
350522493278
I wrote and asked this guy what brand band this was and he wrote back stating Kreisler. It seems that with that clasp design(the word Zodiac and the symbol in that font), the band is usually a Kreisler. Didn't you have a similar band on the GMT World Time you just sold?
I have two bands with the same clasp design. Both were on Astrographics and both say Kreisler Stelux Made in Hong Kong. The bands are the type seen fairly often on Astrographics on ebay.
I realize people switch clasps, but they would also have to switch the two folding pieces attached to the clasp as well since that's the location of the JB Champion or Kreisler signature. And since JB clasps almost always only have the Zodiac symbol, not the word.
I agree, JB Champion seems to be the leading maker of 70's Zodiac bands, but it seems Kreisler was still making some too, albeit a smaller percentage. It's odd that most of the 70's Kreisler bands I've seen were on Astrograpics.
Probably useless information to most, but I enjoy the nuances of Zodiac.

[Butch]

There is so much there that I am not sure I can answer it all so let me try this, in addition to what I have already stated.

I have only seen a Zodiac from the 60's or 70's with a JB Champion band or a Swiss band. Attached is a picture of the 2 clasp types from that time. The top one came first and then the bottom came out some time in the 70's. The other picture is of a NOS clasp I have still in the bag and it was obvious made by Champion as it is so stamped. Over the years I have had these NOS ones in both white and yellow.

Bands are always a hot button for collectors. A friend of mine will not buy one, preferring to spend the money on another watch. Zodiac, and especially Trauner, was always looking to save some money, so there is indeed a mix mash of stuff over the years. Too bad the catalogs only show the front of the bands. And, as I said, a jeweler was always happy to satisfy the customer to make a sale, so switching bands between models DID happen in the stores. I have talked with a couple of salesmen from the 70's that worked for Trauner and picked up these nuggets of information. (BTW, I have also corresponded to both his grandsons, but they are not in the watch business.)

I am not saying your bands are not original at all. I have said I do not know and posed a hypothesis that would make sense. Looking at my latest catalog from the time frame we are speaking of, 1975, all the bands in it are made by JB Champion as I have at one time or another owned most of those models with bands. Just my opinion though as they do not show the backs.

[zaniac]

Yes, I agree, these posts are just my opinions on watches that I've seen.
But if you count the band that started this thread, the two I have and the Sea Wolf on ebay I referenced earlier, that's 4 for 4 in that they're all Kreisler bands purported to be originally on Zodiacs.
I could understand one or two as clasp exchanging or like you said before, a customer could have almost any band he wanted to make a sale, but these 4 plus others I recall seeing on ebay, seems to show that there were some Kreisler bands in the 70's.
What about my earlier question: Did the GMT World Time you just sold have the same band as the Sea Wolf on ebay I referenced? Since that one is a Kreisler.
Great info again and thanks for sharing.

[Butch]

Sorry, I thought that was self evident, or I am just forgetful, one.    For any 60's or 70's watch that I sell it has to say Swiss or JB Champion for me to call it an original band. In this case, it was a Champion band.

[Butch]

Case in point for DIXI: 220954154407

This was a 1980's Zenith kortz watch but the case back is from a Zodiac as evidenced by the markings inside the back.

Zodiac Ltd.
Le Locle Swiss

[zaniac]

Great evidence, Butch. Makes sense now with the DIXI, Zenith era.
How about this one? 190639122467
This has the same band as the thread starter with straight ends instead of curved. Everything else looks the same.
I've only seen a couple of these before. This is still 70's, right? Or is this into the 80's?

[Butch]

Before I launch into this, let me say the Zenith is all original and left the factory that way. I would not buy it because of the factory snafu though. Just as I never buy a Zodiac with a Clebar part in it. It's just the purist in me.

This is not the way to go about it to be honest as the auction has ended and (I presume you and no one here bought it) so there is not way to verify anything. It would have been better to ask the seller while the auction was going on what was written on the back of the band clasp. Having said all that, let me tell you what I do know about that model.

As any VZ Team member here can tell you, that model appears in the 1971 catalog (with that band!) and not the 1975 catalog. To my knowledge, Trauner was only using JB Champion bands in the 1970s. I have owned quite a few of the models in both of these catalogs and those that had original bands where always marked as such. In addition, the smaller 1971 catalog appears to be by Zodiac, and not Trauner, and shows this model, pre-SST and with what I think is one of the Swiss bands. This catalog has many Swiss bands that I have never owned before, as well as some Champions.

Now, as always, this is simply my opinion based on my time collecting Zodiacs and reviewing all of the catalogs. I would encourage you to continue your investigation and come back when you can prove this hypothesis out. But for me, at this time, if it is not Champion or Swiss, it is not original. I will leave this to the newer collectors to pursue.

[zaniac]

Alright, I'm all signed up. I don't mean that like, "Fine, stop bugging me, I'm all signed up!" I mean it like, "What took me so long?" I didn't think about how it's helping the site by subscribing, so when I read your sig, I signed up.

Anyway, I agree that there hasn't been irrefutable proof on Zodiac using Kreisler bands in the 70's, but there can only be so many coincidences or probable examples before they at least start to convince. I do think they used them, but I'm happy to keep digging up examples. Case in point, the example I pointed to in my last post, it has to be a Kreisler. It's identical to the thread starter Kreisler. But I will ask the seller when he re-lists it. It' been on at least 3 times now.

What do you mean by Swiss band? You say Champion or Swiss. Is this a no name with the Zodiac logo/name on it?

Oh yeah, I agree with the Zodiac/Clebar pieces being in the other's cases. That always turns me off to the watch, but the price still seems to be high so I guess it doesn't bother most.

[Butch]

I believe that Zodiac (not Trauner, keep up here) in Europe, for the most part, used NSA bands and ordered them with Zodiac clasps. Check out auction 170782145081 for an well documented (description and pictures) example of this, even if it is from the 80's. I have seen Swiss marked bands like this on Astrographics from the 70's where the clasp is actually spring loaded and stretches as well as opens and is marked Swiss on the back.

And interesting side view of Swiss watchmaking... Fossil had signed up a company to get movements from, a 2nd company to get cases from, and then a 3rd company to get bands from. All "Swiss". This is how it is done. And then, all they needed was to launch a new brand. About that time Ken Genender walked in to discuss using their Fossil distribution system (one of the best in the world) for his new Zodiac 2000 line. Before the meeting ended they made him an offer for the brand he simply could not walk away from. Boom! Instant new Swiss watch brand launched with name recognition. I have a lot of other details but this will have to suffice.

Where was I? Oh, yeah, if you look at the small 71 catalog you will notice some of the bands just look off. Almost belt like with small links. They are the Swiss (NSA made) bands I keep referring to. Below is another Swiss example, does not stretch, and has a Zodiac clasp, on and Astro.

In closing let me thank you for supporting the sites! I believe in my heart that the value you will get out of pouring over the catalogs and picking out the nuances across the decades will only improve your collecting and save you far more money than the $30 is costs.

[zaniac]

I agree, my time in the catalogs already has been rewarding. I saw bands and even models I've never seen before.
If the bands you call "Swiss" are all NSA, I'm a little confused why you don't refer to them as NSA. Isn't NSA a manufacture like Kreisler and Champion?
The mini Genender history was interesting. I figured he sold to Fossil because of losing money, not because he was looking to expand and they made him an offer.
I can't believe in the 1975 catalog, there are still moon phase watches! And it looks like that style came out around 1964 so over 10 years they were making that model. I figured they stopped making them in the 60's. And how about on page 10 with the moon phases, of the 75 catalog, those Datographics with the stretch bands? I wonder what brand they are and again, I thought they did away using stretch bands in the 60's.
Great stuff! Thanks again for offering all this. I will be referring often.

[Butch]

Because, if memory serves, they are not marked NSA but are marked Swiss? 

There are Triple Date Moon Phase watches in the 1950's catalog too. That was was a mainstay for Zodiac for over 30 years. I get many emails from original owners, or their heirs.

I am happy to hear that you are finding the catalogs of value!

[zaniac]

I have two of those bands and both say NSA, but it's kind of hidden. In the middle of the underside of the clasp, there's a circle and in the circle is a triangle and in the triangle are the letters NSA. One letter at each point of the triangle. It's kind of faint, but there. In fact, I would've thought if it didn't say NSA, it was a generic.
As always, just my observations