Zodiac Talk => I saw this Zodiac on the Internet... => Topic started by: LunaLooker on July 27, 2019, 11:11:22 pm

Title: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: LunaLooker on July 27, 2019, 11:11:22 pm
So recently, I got it in my mind that I just had to have a triple date moon phase with black dial and gold case, indices, and hands. Some nice-to-have features are a center pointer date with the hand or tip a color different from the minute/hour hands, moon with a face, and month and day windows in a non-English language (didn't matter much which language; as an amateur linguist, I would be pleased by anything other than my native tongue).

Quite a wishlist, I confess! The dial and case-color combinations alone were near impossible to find in a new manufacture watch, so I turned my efforts towards vintage watched. After a couple months of searching, I finally discovered this watch: 293127814602

It just about meets all my wishes! So, the next thing I had to do was learn absolutely everything I could about Zodiac and this model in particular. I finally found this wonderful trove of information and began reading and perusing the gallery. I'm beginning to think this is practically the only place on the English-speaking Web that contains real information about vintage Zodiacs!

Anyway, as the subject notes, the month and day wheels are in French (though the item description incorrectly states "Spanish"). I asked the seller for movement photos, and they provided some showing a 74 calibre in apparently very good condition. As far as I can tell from my limited knowledge, this watch seems legitimate. But, through all my Web searching and in the gallery on this site, I have not seen a Zodiac triple date moon phase with month/day wheels other than English. I was wondering if the experts of this forum could comment on the authenticity/validity of this particular example, and (if allowed) to comment on the asking price as well.

Thanks! If all goes well, I hope this can be the start of a nice Zodiac collection of my own  :twothumbsup
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: Butch on July 28, 2019, 06:41:47 am
Yes, that is authentic. Also a great price as long as you realize the first thing you need to do is have it serviced. The value of this is over $1,000 to the right buyer. Many do not like gold plating due to wear but this one is in great shape.

 :welc
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: LunaLooker on July 28, 2019, 12:04:55 pm
Thanks for the reply, Butch! I have messaged the seller asking if they know when the watch was last serviced. I would probably get it serviced anyway, but I'm curious  ;)
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: LunaLooker on July 29, 2019, 04:31:29 pm
Well, I've asked the seller twice now when the watch was last serviced, and I have gotten no answers, so I assume the answer to "When was this last serviced?" is "No."  :laugh:

I will be emailing you about your BWG ;)
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: Butch on July 29, 2019, 04:39:27 pm
A wise buyer and watch collector.
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: radzod on August 02, 2019, 08:09:35 pm
Beautiful piece. Butch, do you think that is the original crown? I have a similar era (same dial layout but in white) moonphase, and my crown is visibly different. Not signed but most definitely a different shape. Mine is not gold-plated. Maybe they used different style crowns depending on the nickel vs gold finish? Picture of mine was posted to this forum back in the day for reference.
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: Butch on August 03, 2019, 06:54:25 am
All Zodiacs crowns were signed when they left the factory. If yours was not signed then it is not original. Having said that, different shaped crowns are easier for some folks to wind.
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: radzod on August 03, 2019, 10:49:09 am
Butch, you're the expert, and I defer to you. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you meant, but I interpreted it as "the crowns of all Zodiac watches were signed when they left the factory." Maybe you meant the crowns on all Zodiac moonphase watches? Or all Zodiac crowns in the 1970s? I am fairly confident that a variety of earlier models left the factory with unsigned crowns. I have seen too many examples both at auction and in catalogs of unsigned crowns to think otherwise.
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: Butch on August 03, 2019, 01:23:34 pm
Fair point, sorry. Sometime in the 50's that appears to have started. Once one company did it (who knows who was first!) they all started doing it. If you look at the REALLY old catalogs there are watches with unsigned crowns. Having said that, most Zodiacs watches that are collected had signed crowns, including the 3DMPs I believe.

Crowns were part of the Zodiacs service pack, I have a case full of those. Crystal, seal (all melted now!), and crown. Most watchmakers replaced the crowns during a service. And if they did not sell Zodiacs they most likely put an unsigned crown on during the service.

Collectors get tied up in 3, 4 X signed. I would rather have a new unsigned crown than an old signed crown if I am going to wear it.

Ex-Spurt = A has been drip under pressure. Sorry, sometimes I just get in a hurry. Always happy to discuss and learn though so no need to defer to me.

Maybe UV can weigh in on when the signed crowns came into being. Or a best guess anyways.

A little bit off topic, but along the same lines. I see you are a VZ Team member so if you check the catalog site, in the advertisements section, you may find this one of interest, 1955ZodiacLogoAd2.jpg. It talks about why they started putting the raised logo on the dials.
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: LunaLooker on August 03, 2019, 10:18:29 pm
Interesting information! Thank you both :)

So I guess we can confidently say that this 3DMP has a replacement crown?
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: Butch on August 04, 2019, 07:25:03 am
I believe so, yes.
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: Ultra-Vintage on August 05, 2019, 02:19:55 pm
As Butch had mentioned, this model should have had a signed crown when new.  As we all know though, crystals and crowns take the most abuse on watches so they are the 2 parts most likely to be replaced.

Companies started with signed crowns at different times.  Zodiac was a little late to the game, and started including them overall in the 50s, whereas others were earlier.  They started with the signed crowns consistently on chronographs a little later.
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: LunaLooker on August 05, 2019, 04:12:09 pm
Thanks for the information, everyone!

So, the watch finally arrived today. The watch does appear to be in great condition, as the seller indicated. However, they still have not been able to answer my question on when it was last serviced. Even an "I don't know" would've been fine, but radio silence on that front. On the plus side, I think I did pretty well for $575  ^-^

Butch, I will be emailing you shortly for details about BWG  :twothumbsup

Photos (you can click them to go to a Very Large version):

The dial
(https://i.imgur.com/Dcgk8Nul.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/Dcgk8Nu.jpg)

The case back
(https://i.imgur.com/1PkpFZ2l.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/1PkpFZ2.jpg)

Close-up of the hands, windows, and moon phase
(https://i.imgur.com/AjIgAiAl.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/AjIgAiA.jpg)

"Gold electroplated G20 [SAO]"? Can't quite make out the three letters written in the box at the end. You can see some significant wear in the finish near the lugs, too.
(https://i.imgur.com/9JTLeJ9l.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/9JTLeJ9.jpg)

Serial number
(https://i.imgur.com/kMTTJgIl.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/kMTTJgI.jpg)
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: YuriyV on August 05, 2019, 04:42:59 pm
From what I saw on vintage market (accumulated statistics) and according to old ads and catalogs, I tent to think this "moon phase" Zodiac Grant 1737B was issued with not signed crown. At least on early issues (up to end of 1960s).
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: YuriyV on August 05, 2019, 05:00:25 pm
Original crown should have 4.5mm in diameter and 2mm tall. It is relatively small crown.
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: LunaLooker on August 05, 2019, 05:38:13 pm
Yeah, mine's a replacement. It's definitely taller than 2mm, and it has a much more cylindrical shape instead of the domed shape in your photos.

Good news is that the height makes it easier to wind!
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: Butch on August 05, 2019, 06:41:34 pm
Yeah, mine's a replacement. It's definitely taller than 2mm, and it has a much more cylindrical shape instead of the domed shape in your photos.

Good news is that the height makes it easier to wind!

I was just going to say that!
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: LunaLooker on August 05, 2019, 09:28:52 pm
Haha, great minds! ;)

One of my modern handwinders has a bit of a short crown, and it's not as easy to wind as this 3DMP.
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: LunaLooker on August 09, 2019, 10:47:17 pm
My 3DMP is now safely in the capable hands of BWG. Thanks for helping to get us in touch, Butch!
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: LunaLooker on November 15, 2019, 05:29:01 pm
Got my watch back from BWG today and immediately put it on a Hirsch Kansas strap I'd bought in the meantime.

I am one happy customer. Thanks, BWG!
 :twothumbsup
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: Cobber on November 20, 2019, 11:28:19 am
...in the advertisements section, you may find this one of interest, 1955ZodiacLogoAd2.jpg. It talks about why they started putting the raised logo on the dials.

Hi Butch,
I couldn't find an "advertisements" section.  Would you mind providing a link?  I'd like to read about this.

Best,
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: Butch on November 20, 2019, 01:16:13 pm
It's on the top menu under information on this site.

http://www.vintagezodiacs.com/advertisements.php (http://www.vintagezodiacs.com/advertisements.php)
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: Cobber on November 21, 2019, 04:34:41 pm
Sorry Butch, can't find anything with the title you suggested in the table of contents on the advertisements link.  I may be going blind.
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: YuriyV on November 21, 2019, 08:31:59 pm
 Same for me.
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: Butch on November 22, 2019, 05:37:35 am
Sorry, then it must be on the other site. Both have old advertisements.
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: LunaLooker on November 22, 2019, 10:02:14 pm
Does anyone know the approximate manufacturing date of my 3DMP in this thread? Or can tell me how to find out? :)
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: Butch on November 23, 2019, 07:24:04 am
My best guess is early 70's, before 1974, by that serial number. There is no chart for them.
Title: Re: Triple date moon phase with French month/day wheels
Post by: LunaLooker on November 27, 2019, 01:08:19 am
Ah, cool. Thanks Butch!