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Took a chance on early SST...

Started by rdenney, February 13, 2013, 04:06:01 PM

rdenney

Okay, so I've already bought it. Price was within the risk envelope, however. Ebay ad 170979504033. The seller has a good rep, only some watches in the sales history, no claim of servicing but there is a claim that the watch runs and keeps good time. Their claim that the watch is "mint" is immediately discounted, but so was the price that I offered.

The watch appears to be an early SST, similar to gallery photo 10-SST9, but without "SST" on the dial labeling.

EDIT: I see something that might be similar in the very fuzzy gallery photo 03-Guard2.

The movement is cal. 86, 17 jewel, which appears to be, like the cal. 76, based on an A. Schild 1687, that was modified for automatic winding by a consortium of Zodiac, Girard-Perregaux, Eberhard, Doxa, and Favre-Leuba (according to the Ranfft database). I also own an early-60's EBEL dress watch with a movement quite similar to the Zodiac cal. 76, and it is visually identical to the movement in this watch, except for the small balance wheel that provides the high beat rate, the day complication, and the Zodiac push-stem date quick-set feature. (The EBEL version also has three more jewels than the 21-jewel Zodiac 76).

EDIT: Given the Guardsman photo mentioned above, I'm wondering if this dial was original, and originally intended for use with the high-beat cal. 86, or rather with the medium-beat cal. 76. Were these cases always marked as SST models when fitted with the high-beat movement? Perhaps this watch was refitted with a cal. 86 at some point.

Of course, I am looking for validation ;D. I am also looking for someone who can provide servicing, or any interesting tidbits of information.

I wanted a watch with a high-beat movement, and so have been looking for a vintage Zodiac, given that these are affordable. The Girard-Perregaux versions of this movement are harder to find and harder to pay for :o

Rick "respectfully submitted" Denney

Butch

Interesting. There was an early version of this with the 76. Then a later version with SST on the dial with the high beat 86 in it. I guess it is possible that there was a transition period where the dial was not marked SST but had an 86 put in it.

Either way, you got what you wanted at a price you wanted. Good enough. If you want service info, send me an email.
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rdenney

Butch, thanks. I have sent you an email.

Quick question for you or others: Is the handwind on the Zodiac cal. 76 or 86 stiff? (The one I bought today will not arrive until next week at least.) I know that most of the movements that made the auto-wind modification to the AS1687 did not have a disengagement feature for the handwind the way a modern ETA movement (for example) does. I can hear the autowind gears really winding up when I handwind my EBEL (which has a recessed, hidden crown and doesn't make it easy). But that winding is really stuff, and I'm wondering if that's normal for these movements.

And is the auto-wind on these movements bidirectional? My sense is that it is, but I'm not really sure.

It's really quite useful that so many good watches of this period were based on a common movement, even if they all upfitted the ebauches a little differently.

Rick "whose EBEL is losing reserve power when on a bidirectional winder" Denney

aberlow

Rick,
From my experience, the winding is relatively stiff, but shouldn't be a struggle. Its not like winding an old bumper movement. I have found it to be no different on the 36k movements than on the 21.6k ones. When was the last time it was serviced? Off the top of my head a major thing that could be increasing the friction (and more detrimentally the pivot wear) is oil degradation or particulate contamination. That it is losing time on a bi-directional winder gives more credence to that. It might just need a good cleaning and oiling. How is its time keeping?

As far as the winder, it is bi-directional. Its not the most efficient winding system ever created, but it does do the job.

rdenney

#4
On the EBEL, the timing is spot on, though with more positional variation than my modern watches (to be expected). It's a 21,600-beat movement so I didn't expect it to be related to that.

My suspicion, like yours, is that the winding gears are a bit gummy, which means the whole movement probably is. That said, the rotor moves very freely when the watch is unwound. It was supposed to have been serviced (in December 2012) when I bought it, but you know how that goes. Those vintage EBELs are not that common---EBEL mostly made watches (not movements) for other brands up through the 60's (including some very high-end brands), and made relatively few with their own label. I wanted one to go with my modern EBEL collection, so I wasn't as careful on the price as I was with this Zodiac.

EBEL's high-beat movement can in the early 70's, as I recall, and used an ETA movement. The one picture I've seen showed a rotor with a ball-bearing race--not like the Zodiac and GP movements that started with the AS base.

Butch has contacted me with a connection to his watchmaker, and I understand he also does other brands, so I might give him two watches with AS1687 derivatives to service at once.

Rick "appreciative" Denney

rdenney

#5
The Zodiac is in hand now. I set it last night and it's within a second this morning, so at least it's in good enough condition to run with good regulation. The high-beat movement really checks my boxes--lovely smooth sweep seconds hand. It's off to BWG today or tomorrow.

Looks like a keeper, just from an aesthetic point of view. The 35mm case is 12mm thick with 18mm lugs--all proportioned pretty nicely though the lugs are really old-looking for the late 60's (my how things changed soon after). The crown is worn down but I can see the faded remains of the Zodiac logo. BWG tells me he has a replacement. Everything works though I've not testing the auto winding efficiency. The push-to-set date feature is a nice one on this movement, and it works fine. The movement changes the date (and finishes changing the day) within minutes of midnight--good for this vintage.

Putting it on my goofy iphone timer, the beat seems strong and consistent, and positional variation sits within about a 12-second envelope, ranging from a high of 22 s/d dial-down to 10 s/d dial up. Other positions closer to the lower figure. This has the makings of being a very accurate watch.

Winding it by hand gives me a feel for how the stem feels, and one does feel those gears winding up. I'm thinking my EBEL is probably not too out of sorts, and the reason the stem is hidden is because they were touting the fact that it was an automatic ("Never needs winding!"). But it has a screw-back with no gasket, and that's not right, so it's keeping the Zodiac company on the trip to BWG.

Rick "who'll provide the standard before/after pictures upon return from BWG" Denney

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