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Author Topic: Thinking of buying  (Read 1156 times)

Offline Josephastl

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Thinking of buying
« on: September 22, 2020, 10:22:28 pm »
Saw this on the internet and would love input on authenticity as well as any information about this 1975 model.

Offline Sea Wolf

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Re: Thinking of buying
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2020, 10:39:20 pm »
Looks legit to me.  The strap is real so I think it's real.  Others will chime in with more knowledge.
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Offline Butch

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Re: Thinking of buying
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2020, 08:57:08 am »
That is a real Zodiac model. A quick looks shows it is not in the 1975 or 1977 catalogs though, I think it is later than presented. I have seen them before but have never owned one, they just don't ring my bell.
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Offline YuriyV

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Re: Thinking of buying
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2020, 04:21:15 pm »
I think this is the one (on the left)?
According to my records, the ad is from 1975.

Offline Butch

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Re: Thinking of buying
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2020, 05:20:08 pm »
Absolutely could be. Some are simply not in the catalogs we have. Nice job, I had see the watches before but not the ad.
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Offline YuriyV

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Re: Thinking of buying
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2020, 05:27:22 pm »
The watch looks mint and has a label.
Definitely it indicates ref number "862 976" and style "2133". Which completely matches features we can see: SST, day complication etc.
No doubt it is original and worth to add to the collection.
Congrats!

Offline Grossisten

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Re: Thinking of buying
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2020, 04:21:45 am »
A further - if imprecise - way to date this model is the red dot. Now there are two types of dots on Zodiac dials, one type relates to watches sold after 1990 (the so-called dot-series, which rated models red, silver or gold) - and the other type appearing on certain 1970'ies models, which designwise has the same red dot as yours. My theory is that this first use of the red dot on dials was inspired by the succesful Astrographic series that featured floating hands and a red dot seconds indicator. The design was so significant that it secured Zodiac quite a bit of attention at the time (even if my local source tells me they still sold a lot more Sea Wolfs than Astrographics in his shop at the time). It's logical to assume then that Zodiac took this very significant design element and transferred it to other models. This is also what I personally remember from that time roaming my fathers Zodiac "warehouse" after school but given that I was just a boy I'm perhaps not the most trustworthy of sources.....

Offline Cobber

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Re: Thinking of buying
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2020, 11:41:14 am »
On the pay site there are no Red Dot dial watches in the rather extensive '75 catalog.  The first year they appear is in the '77 ('76 is missing from the catalog collection).  This model doesn't appear in the '77. 

Not sure if poster is aware of the significance of the SST so it's probably worth mentioning, the SST stands for Split Second Timing (hopefully, for my sake) and refers to a high beat movement.  Poster can easily search this website for more information on that if it's unfamiliar. 

That being said, looks like a pretty high quality and certainly rare piece (extremely rare in this condition).  If Joseph is comfortable with the price I would get it. 

Offline YuriyV

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Re: Thinking of buying
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2020, 12:27:02 pm »
One more reference, dated 1976. Still, can't prove it's year of issue.
Note very same design of that Astrographic.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 12:28:44 pm by YuriyV »

Offline Cobber

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Re: Thinking of buying
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2020, 07:24:58 pm »
Wow, nice add Yuri.  My beloved Kingline! 

I passed on a pretty minty stingray version when I first got into this model.  Wish I had picked it up now.  Haven't seen one since.  That Kingline version was definitely available in '76.  How odd..., Elephant hide?  Haven't seen that before.

Interesting they refer to it as a unisex model.  The Basel Fair '76 release also refers to it as "suitable" for man or woman.  The '77 catalog has two sizes however.  I wonder if there were not two sizes available in the first year and if so which size came first?  I always thought something just got lost in translation with the "suitable" description.  Maybe it did?

Offline Grossisten

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Re: Thinking of buying
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2020, 05:16:19 am »
So the red dot marketing concept is introduced in ads at least as early as 1975. But it does not appear on dials in 1975 neither in the catalogue nor in the ads Yuriy has posted, which also includes a 1976 ad. This does not leave out entirely that the dot could have been introduced on dials in 1976 as we don’t have the catalogue – but its more likely that it happened in 1977. Which is then the first possible year your watch would have been produced.

This is assuming that the catalogues are authoritative – I’ve seen references to Clebar watches in catalogues in other discussions in this forum (I haven’t checked out the catalogue site yet, so I don’t know if this is actually the case) – and would assume Clebar was only in the US catalogues, since it was Trauners brand, the US agent for Zodiac. What I’m asking here is if catalogues were universal? If the catalogues were instead produced for specific markets, we cannot conclude more than the watch dates from sometime later than the mid 70’ies.

By the way: I love that you have collected these old ads, Yuriy, they are really interesting.

Offline Cobber

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Re: Thinking of buying
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2020, 09:42:53 am »
So the red dot marketing concept is introduced in ads at least as early as 1975...

Maybe, maybe not.  There's always the possibility that whom ever Yuri received the ad from had mistaken the year.  Without the magazine or publication from which it was pulled, the ability to confidently date the ad remains questionable in my mind.

However, since the ad is in French (I believe) it could be Zodiac introduced the new look in Europe before Trauner started sending out updated catalogs here.

Regardless, attributing any specific year to a Zodiac is a bit of an issue.  Unless you have the original sales receipt.  Even then you could have a watch from a previous year that was sitting in inventory. 

I've got one Zodiac I can confidently say what year it was made and that's my 9ct solid gold English market highbeat  Kingline.  The inside case back actually has the manufacture date code of '76 stamped into it.




Offline YuriyV

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Re: Thinking of buying
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2020, 10:44:29 am »
Yes, there is no explicit proof of year of issue for that ads.

Offline Butch

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Re: Thinking of buying
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2020, 01:16:41 pm »
The company slicks are hard to date. Printed ads are easier if y0o have the actual magazine they were in.
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Offline Grossisten

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Re: Thinking of buying
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2020, 05:01:36 am »
I get that (that dating by ads is not 100% reliable) - but all in all the info in this thread at least indicates a relatively narrow period, an interval, you may date the watch by. In my opinion it doesn't make a huge difference if its one year or another, since its a general problem with Zodiacs that you cannot accurately date them. And as you mention - one thing is the year a watch was sold - its quite another what year they were produced....

Offline Butch

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Re: Thinking of buying
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2020, 08:54:10 am »
Totally agree! Any information is more than we had and it helps.
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Offline Cobber

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Re: Thinking of buying
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2020, 09:43:00 am »
Same, and those ads are pretty sweet!
 
Shows, even though the industry was going through some turmoil, Zodiac was working their butts off to keep the lights on. 

Offline Grossisten

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Re: Thinking of buying
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2020, 03:41:56 am »
They certainly were doing all they could - I remember my Dad talking about this a lot. It was to my knowledge the unforeseen bankruptcy of a major client that forced the Calame family to sell.

I have studied the crisis (or "La Crise" as it is called in Switzerland, not the quartz crisis or anything else, simply "La Crise", The Crisis) and it seems it was an loosing battle for almost all brands since swiss watches had become to expensive as the Swiss franc had soared to an unfavorable high level compared to major curriencies. In fact those that survived more or less all did so by moving into the luxury segments. Which would be a difficult path for Zodiac in my opinion as their brand very much represented "affordable luxury". I've been working on a post about the reasons for Zodiacs crisis back then with a lot more details about my findings and thoughts. I hope to be posting it soon.

 

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