ATTENTION! Deal of the Day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ultra-Vintage]

161251125015

Is the special Heuer, Panda, Carrera, .........and whatever other made-up internet/collector adjectives that you want to attach to it......Made even more rare that it is both a circa 1952 and also a circa 1962.  Also more appealing that the seller has cut and pasted the "Poor Man's Heuer" gibberish from an extremely knowledgeable watch historian.  Don't miss out on a steal! 

If you don't think this seller is delusional enough by the asking price, make sure to read his answers to buyer questions about the watch at the bottom 

[Butch]

Question sent to the seller:

What physical or written proof do you have, other than comparing watches that look similar, that Heuer made chronographs for any other Swiss watchmakers? Be sure to post this for others to see it.

www.VintageZodiacs.com

[Iktomi]

I about choked to death on my coffee, $278,498? Is this guy bonkers?

[Butch]

Question sent to the seller:

What physical or written proof do you have, other than comparing watches that look similar, that Heuer made chronographs for any other Swiss watchmakers? Be sure to post this for others to see it.

www.VintageZodiacs.com

Dear www.vintagezodiacs.com,

Nobody need any written proofs, opem your eyes if you dont sea it with your eyes, you are blind.

- classic-watch-collector

Note that this question and response was not published in the auction though.

[Ultra-Vintage]

Question sent to the seller:

What physical or written proof do you have, other than comparing watches that look similar, that Heuer made chronographs for any other Swiss watchmakers? Be sure to post this for others to see it.

www.VintageZodiacs.com

Dear www.vintagezodiacs.com,

Nobody need any written proofs, opem your eyes if you dont sea it with your eyes, you are blind.

- classic-watch-collector

Note that this question and response was not published in the auction though.

I love it.  If anyone does not buy into his lunacy then they are "blind" or "know nothing about watches". 

That pretty much sums up the beliefs of the "Heuer is God" cult! 

[dmh]

Question sent to the seller:

What physical or written proof do you have, other than comparing watches that look similar, that Heuer made chronographs for any other Swiss watchmakers? Be sure to post this for others to see it.

www.VintageZodiacs.com

Dear www.vintagezodiacs.com,

Nobody need any written proofs, opem your eyes if you dont sea it with your eyes, you are blind.

- classic-watch-collector

Note that this question and response was not published in the auction though.

Well, I didn't think  - classic-watch-collector  would respond so I went to the experts for an answer.
Jeff Stein is the author. Check out what he has to say.
http://www.chronocentric.com/forums/heuer/index.cgi?page=1;md=read;id=69392
Best,
dmh

[Ultra-Vintage]

Question sent to the seller:

What physical or written proof do you have, other than comparing watches that look similar, that Heuer made chronographs for any other Swiss watchmakers? Be sure to post this for others to see it.

www.VintageZodiacs.com

Dear www.vintagezodiacs.com,

Nobody need any written proofs, opem your eyes if you dont sea it with your eyes, you are blind.

- classic-watch-collector

Note that this question and response was not published in the auction though.

Well, I didn't think  - classic-watch-collector  would respond so I went to the experts for an answer.
Jeff Stein is the author. Check out what he has to say.
http://www.chronocentric.com/forums/heuer/index.cgi?page=1;md=read;id=69392
Best,
dmh

Wow, they get really pissed when they are questioned about "undeniable" proof that they received second-hand from someone in a private conversation........that no one else is allowed to see.  I am convinced 

[Sea Wolf]

I'm confused now, so Heuer did make all the Zodiac Chronos?  Is that what this guy is saying?

[Butch]

I have ignored this for years and finally have had enough.

http://www.vintagezodiacs.com/zforums/index.php/board,16.0.html

[dmh]

Feel Free to join in.
http://www.chronocentric.com/forums/heuer/index.cgi?page=1;md=read;id=69392

You don't need to be a registered user to make a post. Just enter a name and an email address and post away.

Have fun.
Best,
dmh

[Butch]

Nope, I do not have anything to prove, nor am I spoiling for a fight. People come here and ask, that is simply my answer, until someone can provide proof that disputes it.

[Ultra-Vintage]

Feel Free to join in.
http://www.chronocentric.com/forums/heuer/index.cgi?page=1;md=read;id=69392

You don't need to be a registered user to make a post. Just enter a name and an email address and post away.

Have fun.
Best,
dmh

DMH, you did a great job.  I think it is pretty obvious that your point was proven, but they have been drinking the Kool-Aid too long to acknowledge it.  When King Heuer himself admits that Heuer did not make their own cases, dials, or movements for these chronographs, but still insists that they did it for Zodiac just defies logic. 

I also like the fact that they believe you were rude just for asking a question that went against their beliefs, unreal.
I guess you were not bowing, chanting "oh please god of Heuer, allow me knowledge" and you did not bring them a horological sacrifice to be placed on the Royal Heuer altar at the time of asking your question! 

[Butch]

DMH, I thought your questions were reasonable and polite. I thought some of the responses you got from various members were rude and perhaps even insulting. But hey, their forum, they can run it as they see fit.

The last pic in the thread I do find interesting, the one with the Zodiac printed over the Heuer logo. But, as neither of these companies were cheap low end outfits, I find it hard to believe that the dials were not simply ordered for each company, whomever made the watch.

If I were Heuer, I would not have done that to a customer. And if I were Zodiac, I would not have accepted that from a contractor. So, where does that leave us? A redial? Not sure, but sure seems weird to me. But then I still do not think they were made by Heuer for Zodiac either.

[Butch]

As a follow up, looking at all the watches presented over there, they are all the models without the raised Zodiac logo. In looking at the 1975 catalog there are 2 chronos shown without the raised logo, the other 3 have it. You know, pinned to the dial like the hour markers were.

Just an observation, I wonder is that had any significance at all?

[rdenney]

As a follow up, looking at all the watches presented over there, they are all the models without the raised Zodiac logo. In looking at the 1975 catalog there are 2 chronos shown without the raised logo, the other 3 have it. You know, pinned to the dial like the hour markers were.

Just an observation, I wonder is that had any significance at all?

People take hard stands on what was likely a very fluid situation in the 60's and 70's. Many companies made watches for others. Ebel, for example, made watches for Vacheron in the 30's, a range of maisons in the 40's-60's, and for Cartier in the 70's-90's. In fact, the majority of their production went out with other labels than "Ebel", and that was one problem that Pierre-Alain Blum was trying to correct when he took over the company from his father in the early 70's.

I see it as quite likely that Zodiac bought dials from the same source as did Heuer, and perhaps a few of them were repurposed by that supplier because Zodiac's sales were so strong. I'm not sure that is evidence that Heuer made the dials. And identical cases also don't persuade me--those were also bought externally.

There are some uniquely Zodiac features in their popular watches (not chronographs--I haven't studied those enough) in that period: The hack feature of the AS1687/1688, which is as far as I know only Zodiac used; the push-to-quickset date feature, the Triovis regulator on the high-beat version of that movement, and so on. Even so, I have an Ebel watch that is much earlier than my Zodiac with that movement, and the notch for the "Zodiac-only" hack feature is clearly present on the plate of the movement in the Ebel. I see that as evidence only that Zodiac may have been the only buyer of those movements to actually purchase the hack feature. But the push-to-quickset date feature is something else--I have seen that with anyone else and that seems to me it would require a fairly extensive modification of the keyless works. Andy could illuminate that one for us.

Thus, while I sympathize with Butch's position given the FUD that we see on internet sales and so on, I'm not sure that the assumption that Heuer had no involvement in at least some Zodiac chronographs is any more defensible as a starting point than the assumption that they did. Neither position constitutes an exception to obvious truth, so either position would require proof to be sure. But so far, the only proof I've seen shows that they sourced at least some of the same parts, not that one was assembled in the factory of the other.

When I see Zodiac-branded chronographs with what is clearly the Buren-Heuer-Hamilton caliber 11 chronograph movement (with crown at 9 and pushers at 2 and 4), I think it's at least likely that Heuer made them--they would have had the correct cases in hand and probably could have given Zodiac and good price on them. That was pretty common in those days.

Of course, none of this suggests that similar styling is any indicator of anything.

Rick "pondering a post on the other forum" Denney

[Butch]

There are some uniquely Zodiac features in their popular watches (not chronographs--I haven't studied those enough) in that period: The hack feature of the AS1687/1688, which is as far as I know only Zodiac used; the push-to-quickset date feature, the Triovis regulator on the high-beat version of that movement, and so on. Even so, I have an Ebel watch that is much earlier than my Zodiac with that movement, and the notch for the "Zodiac-only" hack feature is clearly present on the plate of the movement in the Ebel. I see that as evidence only that Zodiac may have been the only buyer of those movements to actually purchase the hack feature. But the push-to-quickset date feature is something else--I have seen that with anyone else and that seems to me it would require a fairly extensive modification of the keyless works. Andy could illuminate that one for us.

Rick "pondering a post on the other forum" Denney

For the most part, well said Denny. I am always happy to change my mind if someone can produce some proof. So much of this info is long gone from so many of these companies. Used to be that companies had a historian on the payroll, but that has gone the way of the hand crank for the car starter I guess.

Returning to your hack feature, I do not know that Zodiac was the only buyer of it, but I do know that many Zodiac signed movements do not have the hack feature in it, even though the notch was there! Why is that? Maybe they needed a rush shipment and that is all the AS had in stock that day and Zodiac was willing ti accept them. Pure guess mind you. More than a few times over these many years have I had a SW that would not hack, only to be told during the service by more than one watchmaker that the hack feature was not installed. <shrug>

Being an old American Motors owner, I well know what can happen in the factories on the day things are manufactured...