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91
I saw this Zodiac on the Internet... / Re: Zodiac Education Never Ends
« Last post by Butch on March 09, 2019, 11:31:02 AM »
I never documented all the case numbers and parts like you have so cannot help there. I am just making sure collectors know about this fake bezel.
92
I saw this Zodiac on the Internet... / Re: Zodiac Education Never Ends
« Last post by YuriyV on March 09, 2019, 11:26:59 AM »
I guess you threw those marriages together to illustrate your point here.
Right, I used that marriage Sea Wold exclusively to demonstrate how 946 case fits these bezels.
Just one I have on hands. I could use an empty case. It does not matter.
Personally for me origin of these bezels is not so important at the moment.
I'm dying to know more about that GMT case, compatible with these bezels.
93
I saw this Zodiac on the Internet... / Re: Zodiac Education Never Ends
« Last post by Butch on March 09, 2019, 10:13:59 AM »
How about the rest of you collectors? I see a lot are reading this thread, but just replies for a watchmaker and a self taught hobbiest then? And a crotchety old collector. What about any VZ Team Member?
94
I saw this Zodiac on the Internet... / Re: Zodiac Education Never Ends
« Last post by Butch on March 09, 2019, 10:04:05 AM »
I started to write up a reply pointing out all the errors in what you have said and decided it is simply no worth it. The history is available in the Information tab. You and I will never agree on this, and that is fine. I maintain that no owner of the brand throughout history had anything to do with these fake bezels showing up today. They simply would have had no interest in going backwards.

Be that DIXI in 1980ish, Monnier in 1990, or Genender in 2000, or Fossil in 2002, when they all introduced their versions of Zodiacs. Throughout the years I had tried to buy parts from all of these except for DIXI. None of them had any interest in the old models, nor any parts for them. They were only interested in selling their new models.

I guess you threw those marriages together to illustrate your point here. But to me, all they do is tear down your arguments and show people how easy it is to kluge together old parts to make a fake watch. Which in turn brings us back to these fake bezels that are appearing today.
95
I saw this Zodiac on the Internet... / Re: Zodiac Education Never Ends
« Last post by YuriyV on March 08, 2019, 09:17:50 PM »
Definitely. Everything said above regarding originality is true.
Although without proper context we risk to make wrong conclusions.
Nova days producing parts for vintage watches mainly harm us, collectors.
But 30-40 years ago it was different situation. These watches were regular wearable pieces.
Parts were needed to fulfill regular service demand.
But there was no production due to obvious reasons (Zodiac bankruptcy).
So, somebody ordered a batch for their service department.
Or Zodiac, as all other brands, order parts from third party companies, experimenting with different suppliers/styles? Who knows.
As result, standard bezels (regular Sea Wolf and GMT) from that batch were spent many moons ago.
And we can see very weird leftovers.

As illustration, here is a same Sea Wolf in 946 case. It is for regular Bakelite spring loaded bezel.
As we can see, these thick metal bezels fit this and only this case perfectly. They can fit other Zodiac SW and GMT cases only if glued. So my biggest question is regarding that watch in the topic starter post. Does bezel rotate or glued/soldered?
If it does rotate, than spring loaded cases for GMT did exist (issued by Zodiac) and my above thoughts have some sense.

 
96
I saw this Zodiac on the Internet... / Re: Zodiac Education Never Ends
« Last post by Butch on March 08, 2019, 07:53:59 PM »
Like mine!



But somebody will want it when I'm dead cuz it was mine.
97
I saw this Zodiac on the Internet... / Re: Zodiac Education Never Ends
« Last post by Ultra-Vintage on March 08, 2019, 04:44:25 PM »
All of that is well and good. They were made to a spec though, presented by the customer. Right, wrong, or indifferent. China, Romania, or Sudan, it does not really matter does it? My point here is that they were not made by Zodiac, they are not original, and you guys should be aware they are out there and not get duped. First they were trying to sell them on e bay as as found NOS parts. Now they are starting to put them on watched and peddle them that way.

If you bring one here you're gonna get laughed out of the house. Kinda like that one jewel wonder "Zodiac" Jump Hour.

YuriyV, I am guessing you bought some as you certainly have a lot of specs around them. Thanks for sharing that with us.

 :agreei

Well said Butch.  No matter where it came from or when they are not original, thus it affects the value of a watch.  Like I have already said, aftermarket has its place in the watch industry but when it comes to aftermarket cosmetic parts especially they need to be presented as such.  If not, some one eventually is left holding the bag for a watch that is not original. 

Ask a Rolex expert if the acrylic aftermarket Rolex GMT 6542 bezels on Ebay that are being shipped from Vietnam have the same value as the original radioactive bakelite bezel inserts that would have come on the watch? Are they useful for a part that can no longer be sourced? Sure. Is the watch's value the same with either?  Not even in the same ballpark.
98
I saw this Zodiac on the Internet... / Re: Zodiac Education Never Ends
« Last post by YuriyV on March 08, 2019, 04:43:59 PM »
Yes, I bought some for research and out of curiosity.
Found some of them useful. Now sometimes I use them for restored watches without bezels, if customer don't mind aftermarket bezel installed.
Definitely, buyer must be notified these are not original.
99
I saw this Zodiac on the Internet... / Re: Zodiac Education Never Ends
« Last post by Butch on March 08, 2019, 04:30:00 PM »
All of that is well and good. They were made to a spec though, presented by the customer. Right, wrong, or indifferent. China, Romania, or Sudan, it does not really matter does it? My point here is that they were not made by Zodiac, they are not original, and you guys should be aware they are out there and not get duped. First they were trying to sell them on e bay as as found NOS parts. Now they are starting to put them on watched and peddle them that way.

If any of your guys bring one here you're gonna get laughed right out of the house. Kinda like that one jewel wonder "Zodiac" Jump Hour.

YuriyV, I am guessing you bought some as you certainly have a lot of specs around them. Thanks for sharing that with us.
100
I saw this Zodiac on the Internet... / Re: Zodiac Education Never Ends
« Last post by YuriyV on March 08, 2019, 02:49:50 PM »
As found SWs and GMTs were regularly $100 watches on Ebay all day in the early 2000s and the hobby as a whole did not pay much attention to them.  Now that their prices have risen to several times those levels it is finally profitable for aftermarket components to be made.
True. Although whoever ordered this batch in China did a huge fail.
1. 2.2mm GMT bezel fits 925 GMT case as it should. But is too tight. Can't rotate.
2. 2.7mm GMT bezel fits 946 SW case only. Does not fit 934 as we can expect.
3. 2.7mm SW bezel fits nicely 946 SW case. But is plain metal bezel (without Bakelite insert). Never was a standard for SW.

My point is, spending considerable amount of money to something does not fit its purpose is unlikely for people wanting to earn some money counterfeiting original parts. Too obvious. Chinese try to be as close to original as possible.
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