Be an informed Zodiac Collector. Check out the Vintage Zodiac Catalogs Website

Author Topic: I will let you decide for yourself.....  (Read 8615 times)

Offline Ultra-Vintage

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 766
  • Vintage Watch Fanatic
I will let you decide for yourself.....
« on: March 17, 2014, 03:41:50 pm »
Here are some pics I took of watches currently in my shop.  The first is a vintage Heuer Autavia.  Heuer themselves did not manufacture anything on this watch.  They may have "designed" it, but different outside companies actually made it for them.  The movement: made by VALJOUX.  The case: not signed as to manufacturer, however, I am pretty sure it was made by EPSA.  Why do I say that?  Because it is a compressor type case with the EPSA patented closure using metal loops for tension when sealing the caseback.  *See, I can actually look at something and use actual truth to come to a conclusion, not just say that they look similar and tell everyone it is true  ;)*  The lug shape is also signature EPSA, and also found on many of their Super Compressor cases.  The dial and hands: not made by Heuer.  The Heuer signed band: made by Gay Freres.  So, we have a pile of parts made by various companies to Heuer's specifications.  I do not know if Heuer finished the Valjoux movement (applied the pattern to the plates, engraved their name on it etc) themselves.  There was also a cottage industry in Switzerland that would do this particular function for companies as well.  So what could they have done on this watch? Design it, MAYBE apply the final finish to the ebauche from Valjoux, service and assemble it. 

Sooooooooo, when this is all they did on their own watches you expect me to believe that they were 100% responsible for those of a similar size watch company at the time?  When they did not truly make their own?  A liscensure deal seems more viable.  Heuer in their wonderful generosity takes money from a company like Zodiac to allow Zodiac to buy these exact same parts from the outside suppliers, just signed with their own info instead.  The picture posted on the "other" site showing a rebadged Carrera dial further proves my point.  The dial manufacturer had that Heuer dial laying around, and needed a Zodiac one to fulfill an order.  Is he going to take the time to make a whole new one?  No, they are going to try and just change the name since that was the only difference.  Heck, they had to change it to a Zodiac to get it sold!  :P


Offline Ultra-Vintage

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 766
  • Vintage Watch Fanatic
Re: I will let you decide for yourself.....
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2014, 04:00:11 pm »
Example two.  This is my Tradition "Panda" style chronograph that the Heuer fans are rallying behind as definitive proof of Heuer's manufacture of watches from other people.  Tradition was Sears's brand, and obviously Sears did not make their own watches.  Like the watch above: Case: only signed Sears Roebuck and Co Swiss, nothing to tie it to any manufacturer, though I will say that nearly any company that used a valjoux 7730 series movement in the 70's used this case with all different types of dials.  Dial: unsigned on the back as to who made it, but again, not made by Heuer.  Movement: made by Valjoux, only signed as Sears Roebuck Co.

Yet again, we are back to the same ending point.  Case, dial, movement-hands, nothing actually made by Heuer.  Does it look like a Heuer, yes.  Could it have been assembled by Heuer with the parts they had made by other people since Sears did not have a watch factory themselves?  Yes it could have been.  If so, big deal.  Does Heuer want a cookie for that? 

However, Zodiac had their own people to do that work, they did need not need Heuer to do it for them.  So Sears contracts Heuer to help them assemble chronographs for sale that they also pay them a liscensing fee for to use direct copies of their designs.  To me that seems more like desperation on Heuer's part, that they could not survive in creating and keeping their own designs, they had to sell them to others to get by.  I guess that is why they were clamoring to discount watches in a cigarette promotion and had to be saved from oblivion by a French firm in the mid-80's.....
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 04:02:15 pm by Ultra-Vintage »

Offline Saloonkeeper

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 47
Re: I will let you decide for yourself.....
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2014, 08:09:48 am »
Thank you very much for your expert opinion. I really appreciate this information and agree 100% that Zodiac would not need Heuer to make their watches for them. I accidentally found that "other" site yesterday while surfing the net and browsed through the discussions about "poor man's Heuer's." I noted that the posters were quite vociferous in their demands that you accept their reasoning that if it looks like a Heuer then Heuer made it. I saw no shred of proof presented. I won't be joining that site.

Thanks again for the info.

Offline Ultra-Vintage

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 766
  • Vintage Watch Fanatic
Re: I will let you decide for yourself.....
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2014, 01:46:50 pm »
That is our thing too.  If there is proof, let us see it.  Do not look at two things that appear similar and say "There it is, there is your proof".  With the way the watch industry has been historically in Switzerland (copying off of each other constantly, outside manufacturers making most of the parts and supplies etc) a visual likeness just wont cut it.

Offline Cobber

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 317
Re: I will let you decide for yourself.....
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2014, 07:06:43 am »
I'm curious in regards to a couple things. At the time this particular watch was being produced Clebar promoted themselves as "The Worlds Largest Supplier of Chronographs, Specialty Timers..." 
A reference to this can be found in a Clebar catalog found on the reference site. They also state this ad was published in Sports Illustrated. Catalogs from this time also say Clebar is a division of Zodiac. Does this mean they were owned by Zodiac.
What I'm getting at is how do we know Clebar/Zodiac wasn't  supplying these watches to Sears and possibly others?

Offline Chand123

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: I will let you decide for yourself.....
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2014, 02:33:12 pm »
Sooooooooo, when this is all they did on their own watches you expect me to believe that they were 100% responsible for those of a similar size watch company at the time?  When they did not truly make their own?  A liscensure deal seems more viable.  Heuer in their wonderful generosity takes money from a company like Zodiac to allow Zodiac to buy these exact same parts from the outside suppliers, just signed with their own info instead.  The picture posted on the "other" site showing a rebadged Carrera dial further proves my point.  The dial manufacturer had that Heuer dial laying around, and needed a Zodiac one to fulfill an order.  Is he going to take the time to make a whole new one?  No, they are going to try and just change the name since that was the only difference.  Heck, they had to change it to a Zodiac to get it sold!

Offline Blackcap145

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: I will let you decide for yourself.....
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2015, 12:13:07 am »
 The Heuer signed band: made by Gay Freres.  So, we have a pile of parts made by various companies to Heuer's specifications.  I do not know if Heuer
 finished the Valjoux movement (applied the pattern to the plates, engraved their name on it etc) themselves...???







_____________________________________________________________________________
You can get score highest marks in Pass4sure 312-50v8 dumps exam using and test pass4sure ccnp switch labs king which are prepared by top certified professionals, Tabor College ccna wireless training; both are marvelous in www.the-bac.edu
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 07:44:04 am by Blackcap145 »
watson

 

Copyright� 2021, All Rights Reserved. This site may not be reproduced.
By accessing this web site you agree to not take any images for use on any other web sites.

Advertising Information� |� Privacy Policy� |� About Us

Visit the Zodiac manufacture's web site at www.zodiacwatches.com for all your post-1990 Zodiac needs.
This web site is not affiliated with Fossil, Inc, current Zodiac brand owners

Website by Face Forward Studios

Clebar Watches
Zodiac Sign