Hi, new to the forum.

[Guzza]

Hi All,

I joined this site this afternoon and after an enjoyable few hours browsing around, think its time to introduce myself. I'm Gary, I live in Christchurch, New Zealand. I have a growing interest in watches and after 13 years of my life from '87 to 2000 spent deep sea fishing, a strong affinity with the sea. That adds up to my having quite a curiosity about dive watches. After many months of surfing, the magic Google ride has brought me here.

Just as Jeremy Clarkson thinks no one can claim to be a serious car buff unless they have owned at least one Alfa Romeo in their lives, I dont think I  could call myself a serious dive watch buff without owning a Zodiac diver. And I can't think of a better place to learn about Zodiac's than here. With prudence and a little bit of luck, I will buy a watch but in the mean time, I hope you all can be gracious enough to put up with my sense of humour and some stupid questions. 

So, without further ado, stupid question No. 1. I have been looking for the answer to this question this afternoon and found nothing. I do apologise if it has been answered elsewhere: Is there a rule of thumb for dating Zodiac's from their serial numbers as per Seiko?

Question 2. What, if any, was the commercial relationship between Tag Heuer and Zodiac? Willy Gad Monnier's connection with Tag Heuer and his involvement in Zodiac in the early 90's is clear but elsewhere on the Google ride, I saw it implied that Tag Heuer had a commercial involvement in the production of the Marine life Professional 200 "...It was produced when the Zodiac was under Tag Heuer...."

Last but not  least,  I'm trying to get my head around the chronology of the development of dive watches. According to the Doxa website, "...the first ever sports diver watch was made by DOXA and presented to the public at the Basel show in 1966." This was the Doxa Sub 300.  "...at those days, the term diver watch did not actually exist and a watch dedicated for diving or a so called "diver watch" did not exist either..." But the first Sea Wolf came out in 1953,"1953 Lauching of the Seawolf, professional sports and divers' watch." Both Zodiac and Doxa were big players in the industry in the 50's and 60's, I cant imagine one could get away with much without the other finding out pretty quick. I thought possibly this may have been a case of hair splitting but both companies clearly seem to be claiming the same thing, 13 years apart.  Can anyone shed any light on this? In 1953 I imagine the only diving getting done was by the Navy. Was the Sea Wolf available to the public at that time?

Definitive answers would be great but I am happy to settle for speculation and light hearted debate.    

Cheers,

Gary.

[Sea Wolf]

 

I am just the webmaster so I will hold off on giving you almost correct answers. I am sure the resident experts will be along
to give you the correct answers.

[Guzza]

Appreciate the welcome Sea Wolf, Cheers.

[Guzza]

I appear to have found the answer to question 1.

[Butch]

Unfortunately speculation is mostly what one gets when it come to Zodiacs as the brand has had so many owners over the last 30 years or so.

1) No, see above. Having said that, I can usually get a serial number withing 5 years or so based on some information I have gathered over the years. Feel free to send me one.

2) Cough-bullshit-Cough! Now, if someone says that Willy Gad Monnier took all his designs when he left Tag and bought Zodiac in 1989 and designed all his 1990's Zodiac similar to Tags, well... I would have a tough time arguing against that thought...

The unnumbered question you have answered yourself. And facts are had to dispute. Buy some Diver mags from the VERY early 60's and look at the advertising in them. Over the years I have found damned few interesting and/or exotic Doxas prior to them moving into the divers in the mi-1960. They certainly were not (or I don't THINK so anyway) a major player in the US market. Zodiac and Omega were competitors, but I have never heard Doxas mentioned. Somewhere I had, or saw, an article on Jacques-Yves Cousteau and his aqualung in the late 50's and that he used a Zodiac Sea Wolf at that time. But that is merely what I remember, nothing I can lay my hands on at this moment.

I gotta get back to work but let me leave you with one final though. When you get a Sea Wolf, DON'T get it wet. A 40+ year old snap back case that have been off and on the watch many times is simply no longer reliable to be waterproof.

In closing let me say WELCOME! And thank you for sharing and participating. A rarity in such a new member and it is appreciate by us all.

[Offshore]

Another aspect of dive watches from the 50's and 60's was the influence of Von Buren with the Squale cases.
A large number of manufacturers sourced varying sized cases from Squale, and the arrangement was that Squale was mentioned on the dial.(Not that this directly affects the Zodiac history, but it does form a parallel part.)
These are just some of the brands who used Squale cases.-Altanus Genève, Arlon, Potens Prima, Prima Flic, Jean Perret Geneva, Ocean Diver / Blandford, Deman Watch, Margi, Berio, Eagle Star Genève, La Spirotechnique, Wertex, Carlson Tavernier Geneva, Sinn. Airin, Dodane, Blancpain, Tag Heuer, Doxa, Zeno and Auricoste,
Then Squale commenced building their own brand watches in the late 60's.
It would be interesting to know, with this level of "incest", exactly who supplied to who, and what components were mutually being used.
We can only speculate I guess, with the passing of time blurring the boundaries.
But certainly Von Buren had a significant input into the dive watch scene.( Amazing his Buren watches never produced dive versions, that I am aware of)

Offshore

[Nateb123]

2) From what I have found out about suppliers of the time and interchangeability of parts, Zodiac supplied movements to certain Heuer Models in the 60s and 70s (they weren't owned by TAG yet).  Zodiac however wasn't the original source for many of these movements, but they did substantial modifications of very modest base movements.  Any company that could turn a lowly 2.5Hz AS 1687 into a Hi-Beat, automatic, day and push-to-set date Zodiac 86 were serious watchmakers.  They worked with Girard Perregeaux and DOXA quite a bit in those decades producing pieces which could be used to upgrade ebauches.  Then Heuer purchased the resulting movements, especially chronographs (even chronos with GMT, annual calendar or micro rotor features). Heuer however returned the favour by supplying Zodiac with dials and cases.

Earlier however, Heuer was not as popular as Zodiac which already had produced successful models like the Rotographic (with central power reserve developed with LeCoultre), Sea Wolf and Olympos.

[JDS (Ohio)]

Gary,
Welcome to the forum!  I think Butch and the rest took care of most of your questions; the only thing I can add is that I've noticed a LOT of BS & taradiddle out there on who "invented" the first dive watch.  The usual year given is 1953, and Rolex claims they were first, with the Submariner.  Interestingly, Blancpain introduced the Fifty Fathoms, also with a timing bezel and luminous dial and hands in 1953, just like Rolex, but some months earlier.  And it appears that Zodiac had the first generation Sea Wolf diver out that year too, again with timing bezel and luminous readout.  I don't know if Omega was in that mix or not, but I get the impression that a whole lot of watch companies were racing to get a dedicated dive watch with those features to market in 1953. 

For my money, it looks like Blancpain actually crossed the finish line first, no matter what Rolex says.  As for the critical features of waterproof case, luminous paint, and rotating bezel, all those features were already on watches sold well in advance of 1953; the Longines Weems had the bezel, Rolex, Omega, and several others had waterproof cases back in the 1930s, and all sorts of watches had luminous dials and hands. 

Ultimately, it's really immaterial; all of those classic dive watch models are now icons, and I'd love to own each one.

As for Doxa's claim of 1966, maybe it's the term of "sports diver" that they are focusing on, with the implication that their Sub model was aimed at the recreational diver, not a professional or military diver. 

[Guzza]

Another aspect of dive watches from the 50's and 60's was the influence of Von Buren with the Squale cases....

Offshore

Hi Offshore,

I found the Squale story interesting too and keep a good eye out for Squale cases. If they are in good condition they sell for an arm and a leg.  The situation was similar with Compressor cases. I have read of components crossing over between Zenith and Movado (Sp?) too

[Guzza]

2) From what I have found out about suppliers of the time and interchangeability of parts, Zodiac supplied movements to certain Heuer Models in the 60s and 70s ...

Do you think these movements would have been renamed by Heuer? I would pity the person who embarked on writing a concise history of the watch industry in the mid nineteenth century. 

[Guzza]

Gary,
Welcome to the forum!  I think Butch and the rest took care of most of your questions; the only thing I can add is that I've noticed a LOT of BS & taradiddle out there on who "invented" the first dive watch.  The usual year given is 1953, and Rolex claims they were first, with the Submariner.  Interestingly, Blancpain introduced the Fifty Fathoms, also with a timing bezel and luminous dial and hands in 1953, just like Rolex, but some months earlier.  And it appears that Zodiac had the first generation Sea Wolf diver out that year too, again with timing bezel and luminous readout.  I don't know if Omega was in that mix or not, but I get the impression that a whole lot of watch companies were racing to get a dedicated dive watch with those features to market in 1953. 

For my money, it looks like Blancpain actually crossed the finish line first, no matter what Rolex says.  As for the critical features of waterproof case, luminous paint, and rotating bezel, all those features were already on watches sold well in advance of 1953; the Longines Weems had the bezel, Rolex, Omega, and several others had waterproof cases back in the 1930s, and all sorts of watches had luminous dials and hands. 

Ultimately, it's really immaterial; all of those classic dive watch models are now icons, and I'd love to own each one.

As for Doxa's claim of 1966, maybe it's the term of "sports diver" that they are focusing on, with the implication that their Sub model was aimed at the recreational diver, not a professional or military diver.

Hi JDS,
I wondered if Doxa were somehow splitting hairs with their claim too but they didnt give themselves much wriggle room with statements like this: "...at those days, the term diver watch did not actually exist and a watch dedicated for diving or a so called "diver watch" did not exist either..." Seikos first proper dive watch came out in 1965 for that matter so even the Japanese beat them to it Haha! So if its generally accepted that Blancpain/Rolex were the first, then thats an answer of sorts to the third question. As you say, its immaterial who did what, the legacy we are left with is a lot of very cool watches to marvel at and drool over. Whats amazing me it the sheer number of companies producing dive watches in the 60's. Every day a different extinct or regurgitated watch company pops up on my radar.

[Guzza]

The unnumbered question you have answered yourself. And facts are had to dispute. Buy some Diver mags from the VERY early 60's and look at the advertising in them. Over the years I have found damned few interesting and/or exotic Doxas prior to them moving into the divers in the mi-1960. They certainly were not (or I don't THINK so anyway) a major player in the US market. Zodiac and Omega were competitors, but I have never heard Doxas mentioned. Somewhere I had, or saw, an article on Jacques-Yves Cousteau and his aqualung in the late 50's and that he used a Zodiac Sea Wolf at that time. But that is merely what I remember, nothing I can lay my hands on at this moment.

I gotta get back to work but let me leave you with one final though. When you get a Sea Wolf, DON'T get it wet. A 40+ year old snap back case that have been off and on the watch many times is simply no longer reliable to be waterproof.

In closing let me say WELCOME! And thank you for sharing and participating. A rarity in such a new member and it is appreciate by us all.

Hi Butch,

Thanks for your welcome and your input. Doxa had been around since the late 1800's but as you say, were uncommon in the US prior to the mid 60's. Ironically, Zodiac and Doxa share some common history when both names and others were amalgamated by Synchron. Scouts honour, if I buy any vintage dive watch, I wont go near water with it. The thought had never crossed my mind, I have a Seiko for getting wet :)

Gary.

[Butch]

Fur shure!  Years ago when I started going to the Caribbean I needed something to jump in the water with that I did not care if it lived or died past THAT trip. $40 on eBay got me a nice looking Invicta 2686 (automatic, of course! <nose in the air>). My Zodiacs are pissed that I won't take them to the Caribbean too man.

[Nateb123]

2) From what I have found out about suppliers of the time and interchangeability of parts, Zodiac supplied movements to certain Heuer Models in the 60s and 70s ...

Do you think these movements would have been renamed by Heuer? I would pity the person who embarked on writing a concise history of the watch industry in the mid nineteenth century.

They had Heuer engraved on the chronograph bridge in the same yellow-gold, engraved font used on Zodiac models of the time.

Also Zenith and Movado teamed up an awful lot in the 50s and 60s.  Zenith models were sold in certain markets as Movados and visa versa.  They developed the El Primero together.  Zenith just takes all the credit now.  Then there's just commonality of suppliers.  The bracelet on the Olympos SST in my avatar is found on the Longines Admiral, Zenith El Primero "Big TV", GP Gyromax and loads more.  The Swiss brands are definitely an incestuous mix by this point.